Hi there! My name is Jordan Nickel-Dubin. My pronouns are she/her. I am a first-year grad student working towards my Masters degree in Drama Therapy at NYU. I myself identify as queer/gay, have two moms, and a queer grandfather. For my final project in my Drama Therapy & Aging course, I will interview people who are in the LGBTQ+/queer community, and ask about how they have seen the queer community change and grow as they have gotten older. I recorded their answers in my own voice and created a performance piece that will expand as I continue the process of creating a larger performance piece.
Welcome to my project, OUT. If at any point something is triggering to you in any way, please take care of yourself and do whatever you need. This is a sensitive topic so please prioritize yourself and your needs, which was the same message I gave to my volunteers.
24
32
45
59
61
72
How do you identify in terms of being a part of the LGBTQ+ community?
24
Nonbinary/transmasc, “gay” (catch-all for “physically attracted to women but absolutely cannot be bothered to do the romantic thing”)
32
I’m trans.
45
Lesbian
59
Pansexual
61
Bisexual
72
Gay man
How old were you when you first came out to yourself? What year was this?
24
Regarding being attracted to women—the earliest thing I can remember with regards to physical attraction was in 2007, but I didn’t have the language to articulate what I was feeling.
I knew I probably wasn’t cis in probably about 2010, but figured that, because I likely wasn’t 100% a man, I was stuck being a woman. I learned nonbinary people existed in 2014 after a friend of a friend was set on fire on public transit because of their visual presentation, and had a major lightbulb moment.
32
As a “lesbian” I came out at like 18, as Trans, I came out at 24-25/2015
45
9, 1985
59
I was 44. 2008
61
27. 1988.
72
20’s. 1970’s.
How old were you when you first came out to another person? What year was this?
24
It was winter/early spring of 2011; I was 12.
32
Came out to my first crush when I was 19/2009
45
12, 1988
59
It was more of a process, not really a specific conversation. It was around 2015 and I was about 51.
61
I was 27, and it was 1988.
72
37-38 years old.
What was your first coming out experience like?
24
I put everything in writing, nearly destroyed the paper twice when giving it to my mom, and was violently sobbing the entire time.
32
Pretty horrible TBH. I was “outed” by the administration at my school to my genetic donors when I was about 15. I passed a crush note to a girl, mind you didn’t have a concept of sexuality at that point. Just curious. Teacher took the note, gave it to the guidance counselor, who gave it to the principal. Was beat like an animal, mocked by those donors, and Repressed myself until I was out of the house, in college doing my own thing… Funny how they are shocked that I haven’t spoken to them in years. Fuck them.
45
Easy, I came out to one of my middle school friends, we had no clue what anything meant.
59
I started talking about my experiences with women when my children were opening up about their sexuality, they weren’t surprised
61
Mixed but primarily positive. I originally identified as lesbian, after I had a moment of epiphany in which I recognized and owned my life-long attraction for women for the first time. It wasn’t until several years later that I “owned” also being attracted to (some!) males. One friend confronted me with my bisexuality when I myself was not ready to acknowledge it. In retrospect they were correct – but in the moment it felt hurtful to be told that I was “inaccurate” in thinking of myself as a lesbian. One friend from whom I expected unconditional positive regard was dismissive of my desire to come out to her and her family, as if it was unnecessary or irrelevant.
72
Unremarkable, as it was in a safe environment
Where were you born and raised? Do you feel like this influenced your coming out or the way others responded to you coming out?
24
Dallas, TX. I didn’t know LGBT+ people existed until I was 11, was called “faggot” and “queer” (derogatory) before I knew what either meant/referred to, and—even after learning that I wasn’t an absolute anomaly with regards to sexuality—generally thought that the rest of the country/world was probably comparable to the environment I grew up in.
Amusingly, I had a solid sense of “Hm, you’re different from most other people I know, but…similar-different [relative to me]” regarding my gay piano teacher (who was basically my third parent) by the time I was 9.
I was very lucky to have had parents who were always supportive of my interests, style of dress, etc. as a kid. Our 3-person family unit’s culture wasn’t unwelcoming to LGBT+ topics; I suppose they weren’t ever deemed relevant.
32
Was born in OKC, Grew up in Bremerton WA. About a 45 min ferry ride from Seattle.
I would say being raised by Oklahomans made me hate myself when I was younger because I was made to believe my feelings were wrong…Growing up on the West coast has shaped me as an adult. Definitely being open minded, laid back, music, all of that inspiration definitely was influenced by washington state
45
Cincinnati, Ohio. Absolutely. I was raised Islamic and knew from various religious lesson that being gay in Islam was a deadly sin so I keep it to myself until I was outed by my sister at 18.
59
I was born in Las Vegas, brought to LA as a baby. This absolutely influenced my experience. I was abandoned by my mother and given to her parents, raised with her much younger siblings. As a result I had little sense of myself or my place, so I assumed whatever identity was safest, which meant I was straight. But I also fell hard for a girl when I was 12. Never told anyone. I had experiences with women as an adult but mostly kept those to myself as well. It wasn’t until my daughters opened up that I did as well.
61
Pownal, Maine. I probably would have been able to embrace my bisexuality much earlier had I been raised in a different time and place. Pownal is a tiny town where everybody knows everybody’s business, and I remember at a young age being afraid that people would find out that I was attracted to girls…
72
Mexico City, but have lived in So Cal since I was an infant. I think the latino culture had something to do with staying closeted
How did the people closest to you respond to you first coming out?
24
I came out to my mom as “bi” at 12 and my dad as gay at 14. My mom was supportive-if-awkward around it—looking back, I know neither of my parents had much experience talking about LGBT+ issues or identity, which is why I framed the lack of knowledge as a kid as more of an oversight than active mal intent—but generally didn’t seem to mind. I was more apprehensive about coming out to my dad, but in a bizarre twist, he was actually more straightforward/relaxed and less awkward about it.
My mom was more confused/vaguely resistant to gender stuff, mostly because it required linguistic adjustments on her end. While I’m pronoun-indifferent, feminine terms of reference—“daughter,” “ma’am,” and the like—give me dysphoria. As a kid, I was so resistant to my dad calling me things like “princess” that his go-to nicknames/terms of endearment for me were “Chicken-Lizard” and “Spawn” (the latter of which is still retained to this day).
I’ve never explicitly told my grandparents (I only have one set) about my gender or sexuality; I suspect they have some vague understanding on both fronts, but don’t care to know the details.
32
In the “blood” aspect, Like close minded ignorance out of touch out of date church folk
Chosen circle, open accepting, always trying to learn and evolve and understand my pov in life and my experiences
45
As expected, unfortunately. My sister outed me to my mom and she flipped out. She put me on punishment until I graduated about 3 months and a month after graduation she put me out and I lived out of my car for 2 months until I started sleeping on my friends’ couches. I finally got a horrible roommate situation about a month later from couch surfing.
59
I have really only come out to people who really matter, and they are all supportive. On the other hand, I never really told my “best” oldest friends. They still see me as straight.
61
My immediate family (back in 1988) were supportive but in a “why do you feel the need to even tell us?” way. It was meant as supportive but actually was dismissive of my coming out process. My sons were very supportive when I came out to them.
72
Mother/Brother, loving and accepting. But mother wanted this bit of info to remain among the three of us
Describe a time where you faced discrimination or a negative experience in regards to your gender/sexuality.
24
Bathrooms can be an “exciting” time. When presented with no gender-neutral toilets, I’ll default to the women’s restroom. I’ve been denied entry multiple times—from public restaurants to the facilities at my software development internship in uni—given weird looks/comments, and once had someone knock on the door of the cubicle I was in to go “This is the women’s restroom” (not an atypical comment, but a very atypical insistence in approach).
The worst was probably when I needed to provide a medical sample for my new GP; the bathroom needed to be unlocked by security, who looked at me incredulously when I was standing by the women’s restroom door and initially refused to unlock it. My mom happened to have been visiting from NorCal that week and came along with me to the lab; the security guard looked at her, she nodded, and they begrudgingly unlocked the door. I legitimately believe I wouldn’t have been permitted entry otherwise.
32
Most of it comes from those people who I’ve spoken about a bit already. Honestly, the worst ones. Just blatant disrespect of my wishes, name, pronouns, boundaries. Like they have any control rights or opinions over my life. There are many instances of the same infractions, that it’s really just a summary.
45
LOL!! Let’s see there are so many. I would say the first time was in high school on my softball team. I was a little out in high school and my sophomore year a girl that had just transferred in from a different school was on the team and figured out I was gay and started calling me a dyke and other names. Years later she came out of the closet and apologized about it, saying she was trying to take the attention off of her and her gayness.
59
The main reason I never opened up to my friends is the many negative comments they have made over the years about one of our other friends who has been openly lesbian since high school. I know they love her but they see her differently. I guess I have never wanted to have a really honest conversation about myself with them because of the questions and accusations I expect to get.
61
This year there was a nationwide political action in Germany (where I live) called #outinchurch where 125 employees of the Catholic Church petitioned to have the church change its employment practices (they are currently exempted from anti-discrimination laws in Germany, and can fire someone on the basis of them living openly as LGBTQI). When I informed my boss that I would be coming out at work in solidarity with those 125 colleagues and to live authentically (to make clear that the #outinchurch discussion was also about me, not them) he responed with anger and accusations of me being guilty of boundary violations (ironic projection on his part) since in his mind I should keep my “sexual preferences” private. I made it clear that I was not asking his permission and that his response saddened and disappointed me. Our relationship has been strained and distanced since then.
72
Early 90’s when advocating for LGBT parenting rights, being discriminated against on a national stage. (Of course I was with your grandfather and he always had the right answer to these homophobes)
Describe a time where you came out to someone and their reaction surprised you.
24
I’ve only had one instance of telling someone about my sexuality in which their response was something along the lines of a surprised “Really?”—and only because they’d seen me turn down a male friend’s proposition of a romantic relationship without mentioning/implying anything about my sexuality.
Amusingly, I’ve had multiple trans friends who’ve been surprised that I’ve never been on/will never go on T—only because my vocal range is atypical for an AFAB person. Those handful of moments have been markedly more surprising (and, at times, honestly hilarious) than the first incident I mentioned.
32
Yea, my friends. They straight up told me, We knew you were trans. We were just waiting for you to come out to yourself…like 10 people. Then, they threw me a Tboy birthday party.
45
When I told my sister. I had just moved in with her cause I wasn’t getting along with my dad and I felt she needed to know if I was going to live with her. She was super cool and said she knew but didn’t like it for me but loved me anyway. It surprised me when she decided to out me to our mother.
59
I think I expected my kids to see me as being inauthentic when I talked about my own sexuality but they were very supportive.
61
My boss’s reaction certainly surprised me. My friend telling me that I was not a lesbian but in fact bi surprised me.
72
A close family friend, and a person we chose to be Godmother to our youngest child, and whom we had given shelter to when her marriage was falling apart, shunned both me and my ex wife. She showed her true “christian” colors.
When did you or do you feel most welcomed in the LGBTQ+/queer community?
24
Interestingly, I often feel most welcome around other LGBT+ nerdy folk; whether that nerdiness is rooted in hobbies, media, or career is largely irrelevant. I think there’s something very powerful and affirming in knowing that there are folks who you share elements of your experience with in both your marginalized gender/sexuality and areas of interest beyond identity.
32
The Drag community. That actually was my introduction into the community at whole. My co worker back in the day invited me out to a show. I was starstruck. Never seen anything like it. 6 months after that, I got into drag.(2014-2015) I became one of the top kings in Oklahoma City. Then became a Pageant King, Nationally known. Haven’t done one in almost 8 years, but I’m still very much known in OKC throughout the drag community. I Def have a legacy here.
45
Playing flag football. Every one was gay but it wasn’t a gay league. I started playing when I was 19 and everyone on my team were at least 10-15 years older than me and were in committed relationships and had houses and great jobs and weren’t what you saw on television or movies. They were normal women. That gave me hope.
59
I have always felt welcome because I’ve had so many friends in the community and none who were outright unsupportive
61
I went to my first Pride event this summer in Maine and loved it.
72
When I first walked into Gay Fathers of Los Angeles meeting and met men in the same situation as me with ‘like’ priorities.
How has getting older affected you in terms of your LGBTQ+/queer identity?
24
I’ve definitely become more comfortable in myself as a whole as I’ve gotten older, though I suspect a lot of that has to do with…my general development as a person and increased ability to both wrangle my own anxiety and determine when my inherent hypervigilance is and is not correct in detecting danger around me (circumstantially or just in terms of the overall environment).
I initially had some level of confusion regarding if the feelings I had regarding certain masculine folks were romantic/physical attraction or more rooted in the aesthetic “You are how I perceive myself”—it turned out to be the latter in virtually all cases, but it took me a bit to figure that out.
32
Honestly, I’m so comfortable in my skin at this point, no one can influence the way I feel about myself anymore. You’ll get there as long as you live your truth. But 30 is really when my brain was like, bro…..you’re so dope. You have all these cool talents that 99.9% of people don’t have, you are not afraid to be 100% you…which 99.9% of people are. You have a chosen family of your biggest supporters always there on your best and worst days. You’re handsome af, you can sing…. Like I’m really a cool motherfucker.
45
I don’t feel like it comes up a lot anymore. Living in the gay mecca kinda of makes it a non existent issue, like no one flinches when I say my wife. I don’t have to announce that I am gay anymore.
59
I am much more open about it
61
I am much less worried about social stigma now than I was as a teenager.
72
If anything, I truly don’t give a flying fuck what anyone thinks…
Do you believe there is ageism in the community? Why or why not?
24
I think ageism does exist to an extent, but that—like in any community—its presentation and severity varies wildly from person to person. Especially because the distribution of LGBT+ folks among various age groups still seems ostensibly imbalanced (due to cultural norms re: openness about sexuality, the prevalence of broad-scale connection between folks of various ages via platforms such as social media, and the fact that our population was so dramatically affected by the AIDS crisis), it’s difficult to tell how much the lack of visibility for folks over a certain age is down to discomfort versus simple lack of awareness/connection beyond local interpersonal relationships.
32
Nope. What really is ageism? Because we tend to idolize older queer folks in our community, listen and learn from their stories, and given them the roses they deserve.
If you’re referring to someone who just has old ass outdated thoughts that no longer serve the current times, yea you’ll probably feel left out, or left behind. Evolve or go Extinct
45
I don’t experience ageism but I know there are negative issues with older lesbian (over 65) with the younger (free-er) lesbian that are living their best life and don’t feel like thanks is giving for paving the way for them to be that free.
59
I do believe there is a feeling about old gays vs younger gays. I think it parallels the Boomer derision among younger generations, which may be justified in many ways but can also ignore some of the contributions that those earlier generations gave to the younger generation by opening doors.
61
Not more or less than there is in the general population….but as I say that, I am actually not sure it’s true: I suspect there is more age discrimination from/by gay males than in the general population. One of the most blatant experiences of agism I have ever experienced was from a gay male. The worst agism, sexism and anti-bi sentiments I have been directly confronted with have come from gay males. Recently a gay male called me “hetero passing”, as if by definition I am a second-class LGBTQI citizen. And I have been very surprised and dismayed to hear that there is still a negative stigma associated with bisexuality within the LGBTQI “community”.
72
Oh HELL TO THE YES……walk down Santa Monica Blvd in WeHo or any queer community and watch the younger twits stare at you like we don’t belong in their community, Bitch, if it wasn’t for us, you’d have no fucking community….
When/where did you first realize you weren’t “the only one?”
24
For sexuality: It was 2008. While I can’t recall if she was the first character I recognized this in, Thirteen from House was a major “Oh, wait, women can be attracted to women?” moment for me.
For gender: 2014, when a nonbinary friend of a friend was the victim of transphobic violence. The local news issued a brief explanation of what being nonbinary meant, and I went, “Wait, that’s me.”
32
Drag Scene OKC 2014-2015
45
Watching protests and marches on TV, but there weren’t a lot of black folks on the tv. Not until I started playing football did I see more black lesbians.
59
When I met another pan woman in the fall of last year
61
This year: Many female colleagues (in the EFT community, not at my workplace) have also come out as bi recently.
72
WeHo Gay Pride Parade 1990 when as far as you could see were LGBT people and allies. Wife and some friends took me there to help my “growth”
How do you feel about the terms “queer” and “queer community?”
24
I’m 100% okay with people reclaiming and using “queer” if that’s something they’re comfortable with! Personally, I don’t tend to use it unless I have to; “queer” was still used as a weapon when I was a child, so I carry my own reservations about verbalizing it. I’m mostly okay with other folks referring to me as queer (because, hey, it’s true); my one sticking point is if it’s used in a jokingly derogatory way.
32
Love it, I use it more than LGBTQIA community. It rolls of the tongue and kinda sexy lol
45
They don’t bother me. I think everyone should use whatever term that makes them feel comfortable. I think Queer as always been the umberalla for the community that everyone fits up under.
59
I feel positive about them. I performed at 1987 Pride when AIDS was raging and the community was struggling to stay alive. I have embraced the queer community ever since, even when I didn’t feel entitled to be a part of it.
61
I like the term queer, but I am ambivalent about the use of community in this context. I don’t actually experience community in the technical meaning of the term. We may all share something in common, very roughly speaking, in being “non-hetero”, but that doesn’t actually make us a true “community”.
72
I’m a bit old school in that it offends me a bit, but I’m getting over that more and more. I think TAKING BACK THE WORD is way more important than me being a little offended
What do you hope for/to see in the queer community in the future, and for queer youth?
24
Outside of the community, I’d love for more robust protections for LGBT+ people on a national scale; the disparity (on a state-by-state basis) in everything from medical coverage to workplace protections is atrocious.
Within our community itself, I think we could really stand to improve our action on intersectional justice—while being aware that BIPOC LGBT+ folks’ struggles are different and more pronounced than those faced by a lot of white LGBT+ people definitely has value, the understanding doesn’t necessarily translate to actionable steps toward equity. I think amplifying the voices of our BIPOC, disabled, and other underrepresented friends and then translating their feedback into actual change, with their input at every step of the way, is an immensely important endeavor that we still aren’t handling particularly well.
32
Inclusion. And realizing that there is still racism within the lgbtq community. I’m pretty tired of it. The hypocrisy of it all. How can you complain about being marginalized when you are doing it to someone who isn’t the same skin tone.
45
More acceptance from their families. Less murders of the trans community and more education.
59
I want to see a day when there is nothing but acceptance for every child coming up as a part of the queer community. No child should ever be fearful of being who they are. I had so many friends in the closet when I was in college, especially young men of color. They were terrified for their safety and for their place in their communities. It was so painful to see, just as their friend. We live in a very scary time for queer youth, especially trans youth. Any kid with the courage to tell the world who they really are should be loved, supported and helped in every possible way to be who they want to be.
61
I would love to see more awareness of intersectionality and more positive contributions to creating and living in accordance with the values of a post-patriarchal society. I would like queer youth to always feel accepted, welcomed, and safe no matter where and who they are.
72
Acceptance and representation. Don’t get me wrong, we have made great strides in the past 30 years, but continued representation is PARAMOUNT into assimilation into the entire worldwide community. Laws are still being made to hinder LGBTQ rights and this must stop at all costs.
What would you tell a young person just coming out today?
24
I know that things are scary right now, and that, depending on where you are, it might not be safe to be 100% open all the time. That said: there are absolutely people in both your local community and beyond who will support and value you. Be safe, but please don’t be ashamed.
32
No superhuman has a happy origin story, but it shapes them into the person they become. You have to be you. No apologies, stop arguing with people who don’t care about you. They just want to tell you where they know more about you than you and try to condemn you. Get thick skin and let that bs teflon bounce off your chest. YOLO
45
Everything gets better. You can have the same life as everyone else. You can make your life however you want it to look like.
59
I love you, I am here for you, and how can I help?
61
Please don’t forget that the times were different for people who are 10, 20, 30, 40+ years older than you when they were coming out.
72
Be your authentic self, and love who you are. I know this wasn’t your plan, but answering these questions really brought back to the time I was doing a lot of work with your grandfather. Yes, there were tears, but also some wonderful memories of my BFF. And an immeasurable amount of pride he would feel at the wonderful amazing beautiful person you are turning out to be…
OUT by Jordan Nickel-Dubin
Jordan Nickel-Dubin is an actor, artist, theatrical mover, writer, theatre teacher, and huge musical theatre nerd. She was born and raised in Southern California and is now living out her 13-year dream of living in New York City. She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Dance & Theatre Performance and Psychology from Mills College, and is currently a Masters degree candidate in Drama Therapy at NYU, working towards becoming a hospital-based pediatric drama therapist and licensed creative arts therapist.
